演講MP3+雙語文稿:這是“綠色清洗”，終極塑料垃圾最激進的計劃

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【演講人】Andrew Forrest

【演講主題】《這是“綠色清洗”，終極塑料垃圾最激進的計劃》

【演講文稿-中英文】

翻譯者 ChloeMa 校對 Yolanda Zhang

Chris Anderson: So, you've been obsessed with this problemfor thelast few years.What is the problem, in your own words?

克里斯·安得森： 你近幾年都在癡迷于這個問題。你認為問題到底是什么？

Andrew Forrest: Plastic.Simple as that.Our inability to useit for the tremendous energetic commodity that it is,and just throw itaway.

安德烈·弗利斯特： 極其簡單，塑料。我們無法將它 用作巨大的能源材料，所以就把它扔掉。

CA: And so we see waste everywhere.At its extreme, it looks a bitlike this.I mean, where was this picture taken?

克里斯： 我們都看到了，浪費無處不在。極端一些，就會像這樣。這張照片是在哪里拍的？

AF: That's in the Philippines,and you know, there's a lot ofrivers, ladies and gentlemen,which look exactly like that.Andthat's the Philippines.So it's all over Southeast Asia.

安德烈： 菲律賓，在那里有很多河流， 女士們先生們，看起來都是這樣的。那是在菲律賓拍攝的。整個東南亞都能看到這樣的河流。

CA: So plastic is thrown into the rivers,and from there, of course,it ends up in the ocean.I mean, we obviously see it on thebeaches,but that's not even your main concern.It's what's actuallyhappening to it in the oceans. Talk about that.

克里斯: 塑料被扔到河里，然后理所當然的進入海洋。很明顯，我們在沙灘上能看到，但是這不是你最主要的擔憂，你擔憂的是真實發(fā)生在 海洋中的事情。講講吧。

AF: OK, so look. Thank you, Chris.About four years ago,Ithought I'd do something really barking crazy,and I committed to do a PhDin marine ecology.And the scary part about that was,sure, I learneda lot about marine life,but it taught me more about marine deathandthe extreme mass ecological fatality of fish,of marine life, marinemammals,very close biology to us,which are dying in the millions ifnot trillions that we can't countat the hands of plastic.

安德烈： 謝謝，克里斯。大概四年前，我想要做一些瘋狂的事，于是我拿到了 海洋生態(tài)學的博士學位?？膳碌氖?，當然，我學習了很多海洋生物，但是它教給我更多的是 海洋生物的死亡，海洋中極度混亂的生態(tài)情況，海洋中的哺乳動物，魚類，生物上與我們很相近的動物，數(shù)以百萬計的在死去，甚至更多，僅僅是因為塑料。

CA: But people think of plastic as ugly but stable. Right?Youthrow something in the ocean, "Hey, it'll just sit there forever.Can'tdo any damage, right?"

克里斯： 但是人們認為塑料是丑陋卻無害的。人們把垃圾扔進大海 “看吧，它會一直在這里。并不會造成任何傷害，不是嗎？”

AF: See, Chris, it's an incredible substance designed for theeconomy.It is the worst substance possible for the environment.Theworst thing about plastics, as soon as it hits the environment,is that itfragments.It never stops being plastic.It breaks down smaller andsmaller and smaller,and the breaking science on this, Chris,whichwe've known in marine ecology for a few years now,but it's going to hithumans.We are aware now that nanoplastic,the very, very smallparticles of plastic, carrying their negative charge,can go straightthrough the pores of your skin.That's not the bad news.The bad newsis that it goes straight through the blood-brain barrier,that protectivecoating which is there to protect your brain.Your brain's a littleamorphous, wet mass full of little electrical charges.You put a negativeparticle into that,particularly a negative particle which can carrypathogens --so you have a negative charge, it attracts positive-chargeelements,like pathogens, toxins,mercury, lead.That's thebreaking science we're going to see in the next 12 months.

安德烈：不得不承認， 塑料是對經(jīng)濟最好的設(shè)計，也是對環(huán)境最壞的設(shè)計。最壞的情況是， 當塑料一觸碰到大自然，它會分解成碎片。它永遠都是塑料，只會分解得越來越小，越來越小，這其中突破性的科學原理，我們幾年前在 海洋生態(tài)學中就有所了解，它會影響到人類。我們知道納米塑料，也就是塑料中非常，非常 小的分子，帶著負電荷，可以直接穿過你皮膚的毛孔。這還不是最壞的。最壞的部分是， 它會進入到你的血腦屏障，這層屏障能保護你的大腦。你的大腦有著不規(guī)則的形狀，里面都是電荷。你放進去一個負電荷，特別是一個可能有病原體的負電荷——負電荷可以吸引正電荷,比如病原體，毒素，水銀，鉛。這就是我們一年內(nèi) 會看到的突破性科學。

CA: So already I think you told me that there's like 600 plastic bags orsofor every fish that size in the ocean, something like that.Andthey're breaking down,and there's going to be ever more of them,andwe haven't even seen the start of the consequences of that.

克里斯： 你之前提到過，每條在海里的魚平均能“分配”到大約600個塑料袋。這些塑料在分解，會有更多的塑料袋，目前我們甚至還沒 意識到結(jié)局會是什么。

AF: No, we really haven't.The Ellen MacArthur Foundation, they'rea bunch of good scientists,we've been working with them for awhile.I've completely verified their work.They say there will beone ton of plastic, Chris,for every three tons of fish by, not 2050--and I really get impatient with people who talk about 2050 -- by2025.That's around the corner.That's just the here andnow.You don't need one ton of plastic to completely wipe out marinelife.Less than that is going to do a fine job at it.So we have toend it straightaway. We've got no time.

安德烈： 是的，我們還沒有。艾倫·麥克阿瑟基金會有很多優(yōu)秀的科學家，我們和他們合作了一段時間。我完全驗證了他們的工作。他們說每三噸的魚，就能夠“分配”到一噸的垃圾， 不需要等到2050年——每次人們講2050年我都會 嗤之以鼻——而是2025年。沒幾年了，這種情況眼看著就要發(fā)生了。不到一噸的塑料垃圾 就能徹底抹去海洋生物，就算再少一點也一樣。所以我們要盡快解決， 我們的時間所剩無幾了。

CA: OK, so you have an idea for ending it, and you're coming atthisnot as a typical environmental campaigner, I would say,but as abusinessman, as an entrepreneur, who has lived --you've spent your wholelife thinking about global economic systemsand how they work.And ifI understand it right,your idea depends on heroes who look something likethis.What's her profession?

克里斯： 好的，你有一個很好的解決方法，不像是那種典型的環(huán)境保護家，而是以一個商人， 一個創(chuàng)業(yè)者的身份——你用了你的一生思考全球經(jīng)濟系統(tǒng)和它的原理。如果我理解得沒錯，你的想法是基于這樣的英雄。她是做什么的？

AF: She, Chris, is a ragpicker,and there were 15, 20 millionragpickers like her,until China stopped taking everyone's waste.Andthe price of plastic, minuscule that it was, collapsed.That led to peoplelike her,which, now -- she is a child who is a schoolchild.Sheshould be at school.That's probably very akin to slavery.Mydaughter Grace and I have met hundreds of people like her.

安德烈： 她是一名拾荒者，還有大約1500萬到 2000萬像她一樣的人，直到中國停止回收全世界的垃圾，原本微不足道的 塑料價格也隨之崩塌了。這導致很多像她一樣的人，那些學齡兒童沒錢讀書了，她應該在學校讀書，這和奴隸制非常相似。我和我的女兒格雷絲 看到了數(shù)百個像她一樣的人。

CA: And there are many adults as well, literally millions around theworld,and in some industries,they actually account for the factthat, for example,we don't see a lot of metal waste in the world.

克里斯： 全世界還有數(shù)百萬 像她一樣的成人，在一些行業(yè)中，他們甚至功不可沒，比如說，我們并沒有看到很多金屬垃圾。

AF: That's exactly right.That little girl is, in fact, the hero ofthe environment.She's in competition with a great big petrochemicalplantwhich is just down the road,thethree-and-a-half-billion-dollar petrochemical plant.That's theproblem.We've got more oil and gas in plastic and landfillthan wehave in the entire oil and gas resources of the United States.So she isthe hero.And that's what that landfill looks like, ladies andgentlemen,and it's solid oil and gas.

安德烈： 正是如此。這個小女孩，事實上， 是保護環(huán)境的英雄。她在對抗一家石化廠，就在那條路的另一邊，一家市值35億美元的石化廠。問題在于，在塑料堆填區(qū)中的油氣資源比整個美國的油氣資源還要多。從塑料回收的角度說， 她就是個英雄。女士們先生們，這就是堆填區(qū)的樣子，這些就是固態(tài)石油和天然氣。

CA: So there's huge value potentially locked up in therethat theworld's ragpickers would, if they could, make a living from.But why can'tthey?

克里斯： 所以這里有很大的開發(fā)潛能，這些撿垃圾的人們， 如果他們愿意，會以此為生。但是為什么他們不能呢？

AF: Because we have ingrained in usa price of plastic from fossilfuels,which sits just under what it takesto economically andprofitably recycle plastic from plastic.See, all plastic is is buildingblocks from oil and gas.Plastic's 100 percent polymer, which is 100percent oil and gas.And you know we've got enough plastic in the worldforall our needs.And when we recycle plastic,if we can't recycle itcheaper than fossil fuel plastic,then, of course, the world just sticksto fossil fuel plastic.

安德烈: 因為我們都有一種根深蒂固的思想，來自化石燃料的原生塑料價格，剛剛好比通過經(jīng)濟的回收方法獲得的 塑料的價格便宜一些。要知道，所有的塑料 都來自石油和天然氣。塑料百分之百是聚合物，代表它百分之百是石油和天然氣。這世界上的塑料能滿足我們所有的需要。當我們回收塑料時，如果我們的回收價格 比原生的價格高，理所當然的， 大家就會用原生塑料。

CA: So that's the fundamental problem,the price of recycledplastic is usually morethan the price of just buying it made fresh frommore oil.That's the fundamental problem.

克里斯： 所以最主要的問題是，回收塑料的價格通常高于直接買新的塑料。這是最主要的問題。

AF: A slight tweak of the rules here, Chris.I'm a commodityperson.I understand that we used to have scrap metal and rubbishironand bits of copper lying all round the villages,particularly inthe developing world.And people worked out it's got a value.It'sactually an article of value,not of waste.Now the villages and thecities and the streets are clean,you don't trip over scrap copper orscrap iron now,because it's an article of value, it gets recycled.

安德烈： 我們把規(guī)則調(diào)整一下。我是一個商人。我明白我們曾經(jīng)有很多廢金屬，比如廢鐵，還有一些銅，它們散布在 村子里的各個角落，特別是發(fā)展中國家。人們發(fā)現(xiàn)這些東西是值錢的。它們實際上有價值，而不是廢品?，F(xiàn)在村莊，城市，道路上 都是干干凈凈的，如果你沒有被廢鐵廢銅絆倒，那是因為它們有價值， 它們被回收了。

CA:So what's your idea, then, to try to change that in plastics?

克里斯：所以你的主張是對塑料進行類似的回收？

AF: OK, so Chris,for most part of that PhD, I've been doingresearch.And the good thing about being a businessperson who's done OK atitis that people want to see you.Other businesspeople,even ifyou're kind of a bit of a zoo animal species they'd like to checkout,they'll say, yeah, OK, we'll all meet Twiggy Forrest.And soonce you're in there,you can interrogate them.And I've been to mostof the oil and gas and fast-moving consumer good companiesin theworld,and there is a real will to change.I mean, there's a coupleof dinosaurswho are going to hope for the best and do nothing,butthere's a real will to change.So what I've been discussing is,theseven and a half billion people in the worlddon't actually deserve tohave their environment smashed by plastic,their oceans rendereddepauperate or barren of sea life because of plastic.So you come downthat chain,and there's tens of thousands of brands which we all buy heapsof products from,but then there's only a hundred major resinproducers,big petrochemical plants,that spew out all the plasticwhich is single use.

安德烈： 這么說吧，我讀博士的大部分時間 都是在做研究。當一個出色的商人的好處就是能見到很多人。其他的商人，即使你是動物園里的動物， 他們也想看看，他們會說，好啊，讓我們 見見 Twiggy（嘉賓的昵稱）。當你們見面的時候，你可以詢問他們。我去過世界上大部分 的石油和天然氣公司，以及快速消耗品公司，真的有想要做出改變的人。的確有一些巨頭，希望好事發(fā)生卻不愿為此努力，但是也有人真心想要做出改變。所以我一直談?wù)摰氖牵澜缟系?5億人，他們的環(huán)境不應該被塑料摧毀，他們的海洋不應該腐爛掉， 海洋生物不應該被塑料滅絕。所以你要找到這循環(huán)的開端，有成千上萬的品牌， 我們成堆的買他們的產(chǎn)品，但是只有一百個樹脂生產(chǎn)商，大型石化廠，只用過一次的塑料， 從那噴涌而出。

CA: So one hundred companiesare right at the base of this foodchain, as it were.

克里斯： 所以有一百個公司在這循環(huán)的根源。

AF:Yeah.

安德烈：是的。

CA:And so what do you need those one hundred companies to do?

克里斯：那么這一百個公司，你認為應該怎么做呢？

AF: OK, so we need them to simply raise the valueof the buildingblocks of plastic from oil and gas,which I call "badplastic,"raise the value of that,so that when it spreadsthrough the brands and onto us, the customers,we won't barely even noticean increase in our coffee cupor Coke or Pepsi, or anything.

安德烈： 很簡單。我們需要他們提高用石油和天然氣 做成的塑料的價格，我們把它們稱作“壞塑料”，提高它們的價格，而當它們進入市場后， 我們作為消費者，甚至不會注意到 咖啡杯的漲價或者可樂，或者百事 任何東西的輕微漲價。

CA:Like, what, like a cent extra?

克里斯：就貴了1分錢？

AF: Less. Quarter of a cent, half a cent.It'll be absolutelyminimal.But what it does,it makes every bit of plastic all over theworld an article of value.Where you have the waste worst,saySoutheast Asia, India,that's where the wealth is most.

安德烈： 更少，半分錢。這種增長幾乎察覺不到。但是它的作用是，能使世界上每一片垃圾都有價值。當你有很嚴重的污染，比如說東南亞，印度，那里是財富最豐盈的地方。

CA: OK, so it feels like there's two parts to this.One is, if theywill charge more moneybut carve out that excessand pay it -- intowhat? -- a fund operated by someoneto tackle this problem of --what?What would that money be used for, that they charge the extrafor?

克里斯：好的，所以 這里面包含兩部分。第一部分，讓原生塑料漲價，并把價格超出的部分用來支付—— 比如某種被管理的資金，用來解決什么樣的問題是嗎？那些錢會用來做什么？ 那些額外的錢？

AF: So when I speak to really big businesses,I say, "Look, Ineed you to change, and I need you to change really fast,"their eyesare going to peel over in boredom,unless I say, "And it's goodbusiness.""OK, now you've got my attention,Andrew."So I say, "Right, I need you to make acontributionto an environmental and industry transition fund.Overtwo or three years,the entire global plastics industrycan transitionfrom getting its building blocks from fossil fuelto getting its buildingblocks from plastic.The technology is out there.It'sproven."I've taken two multibillion-dollar operations fromnothing,recognizing that the technology can be scaled.I see atleast a dozen technologies in plastic to handle all types of plastic.Soonce those technologies have an economic margin,which this givesthem,that's where the global public will get all their plasticfrom,from existing plastic.

安德烈： 當我跟大企業(yè)交談時，我會說 “聽著，我需要你改了這個，而且越快越好。”他們的眼神透露出不感興趣，除非我說： “這是一個很不錯的項目?！薄艾F(xiàn)在我開始感興趣了，安德烈。”所以我會說： “好的，我需要你對環(huán)境和產(chǎn)業(yè)轉(zhuǎn)型資金做出貢獻。在接下來的兩三年，整個全球塑料產(chǎn)業(yè)可以從使用化石燃料轉(zhuǎn)變到用回收塑料。這項科技已經(jīng)存在了，已經(jīng)被證實過有效。我已經(jīng)從無到有進行了 兩次數(shù)十億美元的操作，認識到這項技術(shù)是可以規(guī)?；?。我見過至少十幾種可以處理各種各樣的塑料的科技。一旦這項產(chǎn)業(yè)為這些科技帶來了經(jīng)濟價值，這將會使全世界的塑料需求都轉(zhuǎn)向回收塑料。

CA: So every sale of virgin plastic contributes money to afundthat is used to basically transition the industryand start topay for things like cleanup and other pieces.

克里斯：所以每賣出 一片新塑料，就會有更多資金用于此產(chǎn)業(yè)的轉(zhuǎn)型，以及環(huán)境的清理。

AF:Absolutely. Absolutely.

安德烈：當然，當然。

CA: And it has the incredible side benefit,which is maybe even themain benefit,of creating a market.It suddenly makes recyclableplastica giant business that can unlock millions of people around theworldto find a new living collecting it.

克里斯： 而且它有不可思議的額外優(yōu)點，甚至可以成為主要優(yōu)點，那就是創(chuàng)造新市場。忽然之間，可回收塑料成為了巨大的產(chǎn)業(yè)， 可以幫助世上數(shù)百萬的人找到新的生活方式。

AF: Yeah, exactly.So all you do is, you've got fossil fuelplastics at this valueand recycled plastic at this value.You changeit.So recycled plastic is cheaper.What I love about this most,Chris, is that, you know,we waste into the environment 300, 350 milliontons of plastic.On the oil and gas companies own accounts,it'sgoing to grow to 500 million tons.This is an acceleratingproblem.But every ton of that is polymer.Polymer is 1,000 dollars,1,500 dollars a ton.That's half a trillion dollars which could go intobusinessand could create jobs and opportunities and wealth right acrossthe world,particularly in the most impoverished.Yet we throw itaway.

安德烈： 正是如此。也就是說，比如原生塑料在這個價格，回收塑料在這個價格，我們讓它們交換一下，讓回收塑料更便宜。我最喜歡的部分是，我們向環(huán)境中傾倒了3.5億噸塑料，根據(jù)石油和天然氣公司的估計，這個數(shù)字將會達到5億。這個問題在加速。但是每一噸塑料都是聚合物，聚合物是1000或1500美元一噸。大約5000萬美元會流入回收行業(yè)，可以創(chuàng)造工作和各種機會， 創(chuàng)造國際化的財富，特別是在貧困地區(qū)。但是我們就這么白白扔掉了。

CA: So this would allow the big companies to invest in recyclingplantsliterally all over the world –

克里斯： 所以這樣能讓大公司們投資世界各地的回收工廠——

AF: All over the world.Because the technology is low-capitalcost,you can put it in at rubbish dumps, at the bottom of bighotels,garbage depots, everywhere,turn that waste into resin.

安德烈： 任何地方。因為科技不需要 大量的資金成本，你可以把它放在垃圾堆里， 酒店地下室，垃圾場，任何地方，將垃圾轉(zhuǎn)換為樹脂。

CA: Now, you're a philanthropist,and you're ready to commit someof your own wealth to this.What is the role of philanthropy in this project?

克里斯： 你是一個慈善家，而且你也已經(jīng) 投入了自己的資金。那么慈善在這個項目中的作用是什么？

AF: I think what we have to do is kick in the 40 to 50 million USdollarsto get it going,and then we have to create absolutetransparencyso everyone can see exactly what's going on.From the resinproducers to the brands to the consumers,everyone gets to see who isplaying the game,who is protecting the Earth, and who doesn'tcare.And that'll cost about a million dollars a week,and we'regoing to underwrite that for five years.Total contribution is circa 300million US dollars.

安德烈：我認為我們需要 投入4到5千萬美元才能讓它運行，當然我們還需要絕對的透明度，讓每個人都能了解實時狀況。從樹脂生產(chǎn)商到品牌消費者，每個人都可以看到 誰在掌管大權(quán)，誰在保護地球， 誰又滿不在乎。這個的花費大概是 每周100萬美元，我們會提供大約5年的資金?？偣驳闹С龃蠹s是三億。

CA: Wow.Now –

克里斯： 哇。現(xiàn)在——

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You've talked to other companies, like to the Coca-Colas of thisworld,who are willing to do this, they're willing to pay a higherprice,they would like to pay a higher price,so long as it'sfair.

你也講了別的公司， 像是可口可樂，是愿意這么做的， 他們愿意為保護環(huán)境而付高價，非常公平。

AF: Yeah, it's fair.So, Coca-Cola wouldn't like Pepsi to playballunless the whole world knew that Pepsi wasn't playing ball.Thenthey don't care.So it's that transparency of the marketwhere, ifpeople try and cheat the system,the market can see it, the consumers cansee it.The consumers want a role to play in this.Seven and a halfbillion of us.We don't want our world smashed by a hundredcompanies.

安德烈： 是的，非常公平。除非全世界都知道 百事可樂沒有參與合作，否則可口可樂不會 想要百事可樂參與進來，那么他們也就不在乎。所以，這就是市場的透明性，如果有人試圖作弊，那么整個市場都會看到， 所有消費者也會看到。消費者也想發(fā)揮作用。我們有75億人。我們不想整個世界毀在幾百個公司中。

CA: Well, so tell us, you've said what the companies can doandwhat you're willing to do.What can people listening do?

克里斯： 你提到了公司能做些什么，以及你愿意做的事情。我們的觀眾可以做些什么呢？

AF: OK, so I would like all of us,all around the world,to goa website called noplasticwaste.org.You contact your hundred resinproducerswhich are in your region.You will have at leastonewithin an email or Twitter or a telephone contact from you,andlet them know that you would like them to make a contribution to afundwhich industry can manage or the World Bank can manage.Itraises tens of billions of dollars per yearso you can transition theindustry to getting all its plastic from plastic,not from fossilfuel.We don't need that. That's bad. This is good.And it can cleanup the environment.We've got enough capital there,we've got tens ofbillions of dollars, Chris, per annumto clean up the environment.

安德烈： 我想請各位，還有世界上所有的人，登陸一個叫做 noplasticwaste.org 的網(wǎng)站。你可以找到你所在地區(qū)的一百個樹脂生產(chǎn)商。你會至少聯(lián)系上其中一家，給他們發(fā)郵件， 發(fā)推特，或是打電話，告訴他們，你希望他們?yōu)橛赡硞€行業(yè)或世界銀行所管理的基金捐款。如果每年收集到幾百億的捐款，你就可以讓這個產(chǎn)業(yè)轉(zhuǎn)型， 用塑料來再生塑料，而不再使用化石燃料，前者對環(huán)境更友好。剩余的資金還可以用來治理環(huán)境。我們有足夠的資金，每年有幾百億美元用來凈化環(huán)境。

CA: You're in the recycling business.Isn't this a conflict ofinterest for you,or rather, a huge business opportunity for you?

克里斯： 你已經(jīng)在回收行業(yè)了。這難道不會損失你的利益嗎，或者，這對你來說反而 是一個巨大的商機？

AF: Yeah, look, I'm in the iron ore business,and I compete againstthe scrap metal business,and that's why you don't have any scrap lyingaround to trip over,and cut your toe on,because it getscollected.

安德烈： 是的，我在鐵礦行業(yè)，我與廢鐵公司競爭，這就是為什么你不會在走路的時候絆倒在一堆廢鐵上，劃破腳趾，因為它們被回收了。

CA:This isn't your excuse to go into the plastic recycling business.

克里斯：這不是你進入塑料回收行業(yè)的借口，

AF: No, I am going to cheer for this boom.This will be theinternet of plastic waste.This will be a boom industry which will spreadall over the world,and particularly where poverty is worst because that'swhere the rubbish is most,and that's the resource.So I'm going tocheer for it and stand back.

安德烈： 不是的，我還要大力提倡。這會成為塑料垃圾行業(yè)中的互聯(lián)網(wǎng)。這會是橫跨世界的成熟產(chǎn)業(yè)，特別是嚴重貧困的地區(qū)， 因為那是垃圾最多的地方，同時也是資源所在地。所以我要大力提倡，并且全力支持。

CA: Twiggy, we're in an erawhere so many people around the worldare craving a new, regenerative economy,these big supply chains, thesebig industries,to fundamentally transform.It strikes me as a giantidea,and you're going to need a lot of people cheering you on yourwayto make it happen.Thank you for sharing this with us.

克里斯： Twiggy，在我們所處的年代，很多人在世界各地發(fā)展新的，再生的經(jīng)濟，讓這些巨大的供應鏈， 這些巨大的產(chǎn)業(yè)發(fā)生根本性的轉(zhuǎn)變。這個了不起的想法震撼到我了，在這個過程中， 我們也需要得到很多人的支持，才能繼續(xù)前進。感謝您與我們分享這些。

AF:Thank you very much. Thank you, Chris.

安德烈：非常感謝，克里斯。

(Applause)

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