與FT共進(jìn)午餐：愛德華?斯諾登

Edward Snowden has rounded on his hosts, attacking the Kremlin’s human rights record and implicating Russia in two of the US government’s latest major security hacks.

愛德華•斯諾登(Edward Snowden)抨擊他目前客居的國家，他批評克里姆林宮的人權(quán)記錄，并暗指俄羅斯與近期兩起針對美國政府的重大黑客攻擊事件有瓜葛。

In a Lunch with the FT — carried below — he complained Moscow had “gone very far, in ways that are completely unnecessary, costly and corrosive to individual and collective rights” and added that his greatest loyalty was still to the US.

在“與FT共進(jìn)午餐”(見以下采訪全文)中，他吐槽莫斯科“做得太過，采取了完全沒有必要、代價高昂并且損害個人和集體權(quán)利的行事方式”，并說他依然對美國懷有最大的忠誠。

He described the leak last month of NSA espionage tools, potentially by Russia as an “implicit threat” to the US government. Efforts by hackers called the Shadow Brokers to auction off NSA computer code used to break into foreign networks were an attempt to show Washington how vulnerable it was, he added.

在他看來，上個月美國國家安全局(NSA)的間諜工具被泄露一事——可能是俄羅斯所為——是向美國政府發(fā)出的“含蓄威脅”。他說，這伙叫做“影子經(jīng)紀(jì)人”的黑客要將美國國家安全局用于入侵外國網(wǎng)絡(luò)的計算機(jī)代碼拍賣，其用意是要讓華盛頓看看，這些代碼有多不堪一擊。

Snowden insisted that all dealings with Russian officials were conducted by his lawyer. “I don’t have a lot of ties to Russia and that’s by design because, as crazy as it sounds, I still plan to leave.”

斯諾登堅稱，所有與俄羅斯官員之間的交涉都是由他的律師出面進(jìn)行的。“我和俄羅斯并沒有很多關(guān)聯(lián)，這是有意的，因為——盡管這聽起來很瘋狂——我依然計劃著要離開。”

. . .

……

Edward Snowden is not the easiest lunch date. The former National Security Agency operative doesn’t fancy talking in a Moscow restaurant so — via an intermediary — we settle on meeting in my hotel and risk the room service. He will present himself at the agreed time. That’s all I need to know.

要約斯諾登一起吃個午餐不太容易。這位美國國家安全局的前工作人員不想在莫斯科的哪一家餐廳談話，因此，通過一位中間人，我們決定就在我住的酒店碰面，冒險嘗試一下客房服務(wù)。他自會在約定的時間露面。我只需要知道這一點。

In the end he’s 20 minutes late, dressed casually in black jeans and black V-neck, buttoned-up T-shirt carrying a pair of unbranded dark glasses. He eyes up the small, dimly lit room 203 of the Golden Apple “boutique” hotel — half an hour’s gentle stroll from the Kremlin — with the look of a man who has spent too much time in such places.

結(jié)果斯諾登遲到了20分鐘。他一身休閑打扮，穿著黑色牛仔褲和一件保守的黑色V領(lǐng)T恤，戴著一副沒有品牌logo的墨鏡。他打量了一番金蘋果“精品”酒店(Golden Apple)——從這里溜達(dá)到克里姆林宮需要半小時——狹小昏暗的203號房間，一副在這種地方住過很長時間的樣子。

How does it compare with room 1014 of the Mira Hotel in Hong Kong, where in June 2013 — having shared many of the NSA’s most closely guarded secrets with a few handpicked journalists — Snowden spent a week as the most wanted man in the world?

這個房間和香港美麗華酒店(Mira Hotel)1014號房間比起來怎樣呢?2013年6月他在那個房間里住了一周，作為世界頭號通緝犯——在他與挑選的幾名記者分享了美國國家安全局許多最嚴(yán)加保守的秘密之后。

“A bit smaller, but not dissimilar,” he says. “The Hong Kong room had a glass bathroom wall here,” he adds, pointing to a bland wall featuring an obligatory hotel watercolour.

“小一點，但也沒多大不同，”他說。“香港那個房間在這里有一面浴室的玻璃墻，”他指著一面普普通通的墻壁說道，墻上掛著一幅在酒店房間里常見的水彩畫。

The interior of the Mira hotel room is about to become much better known with the US release next week of Oliver Stone’s biopic about Snowden, which stars Joseph Gordon-Levitt in the whistleblower’s role. Much of the tensest, most claustrophobic action is filmed in a reconstruction of room 1014 built inside a hangar-like studio in Munich.

美麗華酒店1014號房間內(nèi)的布置將隨著一部影片的上映而更加為人們所知。奧利弗•斯通(Oliver Stone)執(zhí)導(dǎo)的斯諾登傳記片于9月16日在美國上映，約瑟夫•戈登-萊維特(Joseph Gordon-Levitt)飾演泄密者斯諾登一角。片中最緊張、最具幽閉恐懼氣氛的鏡頭是在慕尼黑一個飛機(jī)庫般的攝影棚內(nèi)重建的1014號房間里拍攝的。

During that intense week three years ago, Snowden and two Guardian reporters worked on those first stories disclosing the full capabilities that intelligence agencies can now deploy against populations. When he revealed himself as the source, he was acclaimed as a hero by some — others recommended the electric chair. I had never met him and was entirely reliant on the judgment of our veteran reporter, Ewen MacAskill, who rang to report (in pre-arranged code owing something to Hollywood) that “the Guinness is good”.

3年前他住在美麗華酒店1014房間的那一周過得相當(dāng)緊張，因為他的爆料，兩名《衛(wèi)報》(Guardian)記者寫出了第一波披露當(dāng)今情報部門能夠使用在民眾身上的全部監(jiān)聽能力的報道。在他披露自己是消息來源后，一些人將他譽為英雄，另外一些人提出應(yīng)該讓他坐電椅。我那時候還沒有見過他，我對他的全部認(rèn)知都來自于我們的資深記者尤恩•麥卡斯基爾(Ewen MacAskill)的判斷，他和斯諾登會面后，打電話來匯報——學(xué)好萊塢電影使用事先商量好的暗號——“吉尼斯很棒”(譯注：表示斯諾登的消息是真實的)。

I first saw his face about an hour before the rest of the world, when MacAskill filed his video interview to New York. Like everyone else there I was struck by his stubbled youth and impressed by his thoughtful articulacy. Today, at 33, there’s a touch less stubble, and the hair is a smidgen longer. He says he moves freely around Moscow, seldom recognised, which is surprising since he has changed little since that first picture of him etched itself on our consciousness.

我第一次看見他的面孔大約比世界上其他人早一個小時——由勞拉•波伊特拉斯(Laura Poitras)拍攝的、麥卡斯基爾和格倫•格林沃爾德(Glenn Greenwald)兩位記者采訪斯諾登的視頻被發(fā)送到了紐約。就像在場所有其他人一樣，斯諾登的年輕——他蓄著胡茬——讓我震驚，他的思維縝密和能說會道也讓我印象深刻?，F(xiàn)在，33歲的斯諾登臉上的胡茬少了一點，頭發(fā)也比那時候長了一點。他說他在莫斯科可以自由地到處走，很少被人認(rèn)出來，這一點讓人驚訝，因為從他的第一張照片給我們留下印象以來，他幾乎沒什么變化。

Reading the laminated room-service menu card, complete with English translations, he is tempted by the spicy chicken curry with rice and chilli sauce. I go for the risotto with white mushrooms and a “vinaigrette” salad with herring. Snowden — skinny thin — decides he can’t resist the crab cakes, too. We telephone the order for the food, with mineral water.

看了客房里配有英文翻譯的塑封菜單后，斯諾登選中了辣味咖喱雞配米飯和辣醬，我選了口蘑燴飯和油醋汁鯡魚沙拉。斯諾登——他非常瘦——覺得蟹餅也讓人無法抗拒。我們打電話點了餐，還要了礦泉水。

He has been unwillingly marooned in Moscow since 2013 when — the subject of a giant manhunt — he was forced to leave Hong Kong. How’s his Russian coming on? He confirms it’s up to ordering in a restaurant, but is reluctant to elaborate. “All my work’s in English. Everybody I talk to I speak to in English,” he says. “I sleep in Russia but I live all around the world. I don’t have a lot of ties to Russia. That’s by design because, as crazy as it sounds, I still plan to leave.”

自2013年遭到大規(guī)模搜捕、無奈離開香港以來，他一直不情愿地被困在莫斯科。現(xiàn)在他的俄語怎么樣?斯諾登表示他能在餐廳里用俄語點餐，但他不愿意細(xì)談這個話題。“我在工作中都用英語，我和每個人交談都用英語說話，”他說，“我睡在俄羅斯，但我生活在世界各地。我和俄羅斯并沒有很多關(guān)聯(lián)，這是有意的，因為——這盡管聽起來很瘋狂——我依然計劃著離開。”

He lives “mainly” on Eastern Standard Time and spends most of his waking hours online — “but it always has been so”. He admits he misses the “sense of home” represented by America, “but technology overcomes most of that divide. For me, I’m a little bit of an outlier to begin with because, remember, I signed up to go work overseas for the CIA and overseas for the NSA. So it’s really not that much different from the postings that I had for the US.

他的作息“基本”遵循美國東部標(biāo)準(zhǔn)時間，醒時也多半都在上網(wǎng)，“不過我一直這么過的”。他承認(rèn)自己想念美國代表的“家的感覺”，“但科技基本上克服了這種分離。就我而言，我本來就有點像外派的工作人員，記得不，我曾簽約為中央情報局和國家安全局去海外工作。所以，這與我曾經(jīng)為美國駐外工作相比真的沒有太大不同。”

“The only difference is that I’m still posted overseas and I work for the US but they don’t realise it.” As anyone who follows him on Twitter knows (he follows just one account: the NSA) he is capable of a very dry wit.

“唯一不同的是我依然駐外，依然為美國工作，只不過美國人民沒認(rèn)識到罷了。”在Twitter上關(guān)注了他的人都知道，斯諾登可是個冷幽默高手(他的Twitter只關(guān)注了一個賬號：美國國家安全局。)

He has seen a version of the Stone movie on one of the director’s trips to Moscow, during which Snowden says he would talk to Stone’s co-writer, Kieran Fitzgerald, about “trying to keep the film a little bit closer to being reality”.

有一次斯通來莫斯科時，給斯諾登看了他拍的電影，那時他表示愿意和斯通的聯(lián)合編劇基蘭•菲茨杰拉德( Kieran Fitzgerald)談?wù)勅绾?ldquo;讓影片更貼近現(xiàn)實一點”。

“But,” he shrugs, “I know it’s a drama, not a documentary.”

“不過，”他聳了聳肩：“我知道這是戲，不是紀(jì)錄片。”

How would he score it out of 10? He avoids a rating. “On the policy questions, which I think are the most important thing for the public understanding, it’s as close to real as you can get in a film.”

如果滿分十分，他會給幾分呢?斯諾登沒有打分：“在政策問題上——我認(rèn)為這是公眾要知道的最重要的事情——它已經(jīng)達(dá)到了一部電影所能表現(xiàn)的最真實的地步。”

He met Gordon-Levitt in Moscow and thought him “an amazing guy . . . we had lunch together, talked for several hours just about everything, our personal lives — what we think about, what we care about. At the time I thought it was just a social visit but, after the fact, he told me that he was actually scoping me out, trying to get my mannerisms.”

斯諾登在莫斯科見了戈登-萊維特，他認(rèn)為對方是個“了不起的家伙……我們一起吃了午餐，聊了幾個小時，什么都聊，包括我們的私人生活，我們的想法，我們在意什么。當(dāng)時我以為這只是一次社交性的拜訪，但事后他告訴我，他其實是在揣摩我，研究我的言談舉止。”

Having interviewed Gordon-Levitt’s “Snowden” as part of my own cameo in the film, I can vouch for how well he captures the real thing. Snowden was impressed, too: “His characterisation of me makes me uncomfortable, with the super-deep gravelly voice, but that’s because you never hear your own voice the way other people do, right?”

我在影片中的客串戲份是采訪戈登-萊維特扮演的“斯諾登”，我可以打包票地說，他完美地捕捉到了人物真髓。斯諾登也印象深刻：“他扮演的我讓我不大自在，他的嗓音太低沉沙啞，不過這是因為人們從來沒聽過別人耳中自己的聲音，對吧?”

Was he moved by the film, which in flashback revisits the episodes in his life that led to what he calls his “tortured” decision to engineer the biggest leak of classified documents in history? “There’s always going to be something emotional about seeing something that you did retold as a story by other people. It shows a reflection of how your choices matter to them. Three years later, seeing what we thought was going to be a five-day story still being reported on [makes me think] that I wasn’t crazy.”

這部片子對他有觸動嗎?影片以倒敘手法再現(xiàn)了他的生活經(jīng)歷，正是這些經(jīng)歷導(dǎo)致他作出“痛苦”決定，從而制造了史上最大的機(jī)密文件泄露事件。“當(dāng)你從別人復(fù)述的故事中看到自己過往做的事，總會有些動情。它體現(xiàn)了一種思考，關(guān)于你做的選擇對他們產(chǎn)生了怎樣的影響。3年過去，看到我們當(dāng)初的想法變成一個5天故事，而且仍有媒體報道，讓我覺得自己當(dāng)初并不是瘋了。”

 . . . 

……

There’s a knock on the door — which would have caused a spasm of paranoid anxiety in the Mira in 2013. Now it’s just room service. The floor is so small the waiter balances the tray on the bed and Snowden has to perch his chicken curry on his knee. The water is missing. My vinaigrette salad turns out to be cubed beetroot. I avoid the herrings.

外面?zhèn)鱽砬瞄T聲——這要是在2013年的美麗華酒店，肯定會引起猜疑和焦慮?，F(xiàn)在只是客房服務(wù)罷了。房間太小，服務(wù)員將托盤搭在床上，斯諾登只得將咖喱雞米飯放在膝蓋上。水沒送上來。我的沙拉原來是切成丁狀的甜菜根。我沒吃鯡魚。

Once he nods at the iPhone recording our interview and expands on a point “in case someone is listening”. The first time I met him — to see how he was surviving in his new circumstances in spring 2014 — my iPhone had displayed a giant red thermometer, a sign of alarming overheating. Snowden had observed mildly it was because so many different people were trying to listen in.

他朝著正在錄制我們采訪現(xiàn)場的iPhone點了一下頭，然后圍繞“以防有人在聽”這個話題發(fā)了一通議論。2014年春天我第一次見他，看看他在新環(huán)境里過得如何，當(dāng)時我的iPhone上出現(xiàn)了一個巨大的紅色溫度計，那是過熱預(yù)警信號。那時斯諾登溫和地說，這是因為有太多不同來路的人企圖監(jiān)聽它。

He confirms he received no money from the movie, adding of his tangential experience of Hollywood: “When I was told that there was going to be a film made about me, it was a scary thing, one of the most terrifying things I can imagine. But, looking back, I hope it helps, I’m cautiously optimistic that it will.”

他證實自己沒從這部電影拿到一分錢，倒是對好萊塢多懂了一點皮毛。“當(dāng)我被告知有人要拍一部關(guān)于我的電影時，感覺很嚇人，這是我能想到的最可怕的事情之一。但回過頭來看，我希望它能有所幫助，我謹(jǐn)慎樂觀地認(rèn)為它會有作用的。”

He looks back over the period since the revelations and reflects that all three branches of government in the US — Congress, courts, president — have changed their position on mass surveillance. “We can actually start to impose more oversight on spies, rather than giving them a free pass to do whatever simply because we’re scared, which is understandable but clearly not ethical.”

他回顧了爆料以來這段時期的情況，認(rèn)為美國政府的三大支柱——國會、法院和總統(tǒng)——已經(jīng)改變了對大規(guī)模監(jiān)聽的立場。“真的，我們可以開始對間諜實施更多監(jiān)督了，而不能僅僅因為我們害怕，就給他們一張可以為所欲為的免費通行證，這可以理解，但顯然不道德。”

What of subsequent developments in the UK, where the government’s response has been to propose laws that not only sanction, post hoc, the intelligence activities that were revealed to be happening, but extend them? He says it was not his intention to tell the world how to structure their laws, but to give people a voice in the process. “The laws have gotten worse in some countries. France has gone very far, so too, of course, countries like Russia, China. In Britain there’s an authoritarian trend.

英國后來的情況怎么樣?英國政府的回應(yīng)是提議立法，不僅批準(zhǔn)那些被披露正在進(jìn)行的情報活動，還要擴(kuò)大范圍。他表示，自己的本意不是要告訴世界如何制定法律，而是讓人民有機(jī)會在這個過程中發(fā)聲。“在有些國家，法律已經(jīng)變得更糟。法國已經(jīng)走得很遠(yuǎn)，俄羅斯、中國等國當(dāng)然也是這樣。英國出現(xiàn)了一種威權(quán)主義趨勢。”

“We don’t allow police to enter and search any home. We don’t typically reorder the operation of a free society for the convenience of the police — because that is the definition of a police state,” he says, mopping up the last of the rice. “And yet some spies and officials are trying to persuade us that we should. Now, I would argue there’s no real question that police in a police state would be more effective than those in a free and liberal society where the police operate under tighter constraints. But which one would you rather live in?”

“我們不允許警察入室搜查。通常，我們不會為了方便警察行事而重新安排一個自由社會的運轉(zhuǎn)秩序——因為那便是警察國家的定義，”他說著大口吃完最后一點米飯。“但一些間諜和官員正試圖說服我們應(yīng)該這樣做。我得說，警察國家的警察無疑會比一個自由、開放社會的警察更高效，因為在自由社會，警察的行動受到更嚴(yán)格的約束。但你更愿意生活在哪一種社會呢?”

He has finished his curry and pronounces it “quite good”. The crab cakes are abandoned after a bite. “Less good,” he says. We order ice cream — vanilla, strawberry and chocolate for him, sorbet for me. The voice on the phone launches into a complicated explanation of why, with five scoops in all, we can have a discount.

他吃完了咖喱飯，說“非常好吃”。蟹餅只咬了一口就被放到一邊，“不太好吃，”他說。我們點了冰淇淋，他要了香草、草莓和巧克力口味的，我選了冰沙。電話那頭的人詳細(xì)地解釋了為什么我們可以享受折扣——總共給了我們五把勺子。

Does he never lose sleep at night wondering whether Isis terrorists might not have gained some useful advantage from the information he disclosed?

他在夜里從來不失眠嗎?他難道不會琢磨伊斯蘭國(ISIS)恐怖分子是否從他披露的信息中獲得了一些可以利用的優(yōu)勢?

Well, firstly, he says, in all the recent European attacks the suspects were known to the authorities, who thus had the ability to target them without having to scoop up everyone else’s data as well. Secondly, he points out, Osama bin Laden stopped using a mobile phone in 1998 — not because of leaks to newspapers but because “there is an aggressive form of Darwinism in terrorist circles. Long before we, the public, know about any of these surveillance measures, they have already known for years because, if they had not, they are already dead.

噢，首先，他說，在歐洲最近發(fā)生的所有襲擊事件中，當(dāng)局知道這些嫌疑人，他們有能力把他們列為目標(biāo)，而不必搜集所有其他人的數(shù)據(jù)。其次，他指出，奧薩馬•本•拉登(Osama bin Laden)從1998年就不使用移動電話了——不是因為誰對報紙泄的密，而是因為“恐怖分子的圈子里有一種生猛的達(dá)爾文主義。早在我們——公眾——知曉任何這類監(jiān)聽措施之前，他們已經(jīng)知道好多年了，因為如果他們不知道的話，他們早就死了。”

“But,” he goes on, “let’s say that the newspapers had decided this should not be public. Let’s say the intelligence services had been able to continue using these programs in secret. Would it have stopped any of the terrorist attacks that have occurred in the last three years? There’s no public evidence that that’s the case. In fact, there’s no classified evidence that that’s the case, or else we’d be reading it in the newspapers.”

“但是，”他接著說，“假設(shè)那些報紙決定這些資料不應(yīng)被公開。假設(shè)情報機(jī)構(gòu)能夠繼續(xù)秘密進(jìn)行這些監(jiān)聽項目。那樣能阻止過去三年發(fā)生的任何一起恐怖襲擊嗎?沒有公開證據(jù)能證明這一點。實際上，也沒有秘密證據(jù)能證明，否則我們就會在報紙上看到。”

We move on to talking about stories alleging Russian hacking of the NSA itself and of the Democratic party’s governing body, the Democratic National Committee. The former involved a group calling itself the Shadow Brokers, who threatened to auction very sophisticated alleged NSA surveillance tools. The latter was a collection of DNC emails published — to general embarrassment — by WikiLeaks in July.

我們接著談?wù)撁绹鴩野踩直旧硪约懊绹裰鼽h的管理機(jī)構(gòu)——民主黨全國委員會(Democratic National Committee)遭到俄羅斯黑客入侵的傳聞。前者涉及一個自稱“影子經(jīng)紀(jì)人”的組織，威脅要拍賣非常先進(jìn)的據(jù)說是美國國家安全局所使用的監(jiān)控工具。后者涉及維基解密(WikiLeaks)7月公布的民主黨全國委員會的一批郵件——讓民主黨上下都臉上無光。

The Shadow Broker leak, says Snowden, “doesn’t strike me as a whistleblower: that strikes me as a warning. It’s political messaging being carried out through information disclosure.” And the DNC hack, where, as he observes, the conventional wisdom is that it was the Russians? “This is part of the problem of this surveillance free-for-all that we’re allowing to occur by refusing to moderate our own behaviour. We’ve set a kind of global precedent that anything is possible and nothing is prohibited.

斯諾登說，影子經(jīng)紀(jì)人泄密事件“并未讓我覺得他們是泄密者，我覺得這是一次警告，是通過信息泄露的方式傳達(dá)政治信息”。至于民主黨全國委員會遭攻擊事件，正如他所言，人們普遍認(rèn)為這是俄羅斯黑客所為。“這是這種不加限制的監(jiān)控行為帶來的一部分問題，正是我們拒絕克制自己的行為才使得這種狀況得以發(fā)生。我們樹立了一種全球先例——一切皆有可能，沒有什么是被禁止的。”

“Now, the fact the DNC got hacked is not surprising and interesting. We’re hacking political parties around the world, so is every country. What makes it interesting is that some of the things taken from this server were published afterwards. That’s quite novel. I think.”

“民主黨全國委員會被侵入的事實并不令人覺得驚訝和有趣。我們會侵入世界各國的政黨，每個國家都在這樣做。這件事有趣的地方是，從該服務(wù)器竊取的一些信息后來被公之于眾。這一點非常新鮮。我覺得。”

Which makes him think what? “That it’s for political effect.”

什么讓他這么想?“這是為了起到政治效果。”

He says — as someone who used to try and do this sort of thing to the Chinese — that it would be easy to attribute the hack to whoever had done it. “But this creates a problem because, let’s say, the NSA has the smoking gun that says the Russians hacked the DNC, and they tell us the Russians hacked the DNC, how can we be sure? It presumes a level of trust that no longer exists.”

他說，很容易將這次攻擊算到做過這種事的人頭上——就像某些人過去常常試圖這么對待中國人。“然而，這會帶來一個問題，因為，假設(shè)說，美國國家安全局掌握了俄羅斯人侵入民主黨全國委員會的確鑿證據(jù)，并且他們告訴我們俄國人侵入了民主黨全國委員會，我們又如何確信呢?這么做假定了一種不復(fù)存在的信任度。”

The ice creams arrive along with an espresso, replacing the first set of dishes on the bed. Snowden spills a bit of chicken curry on the duvet and apologetically mops it up with a towel.

冰淇淋和意式濃縮咖啡一齊到了，換掉了床上的第一套餐具。斯諾登不慎把一點雞肉咖喱汁灑到了羽絨被上，他帶著歉意用紙巾拭去。

Aren’t we beginning to discover that no digital databases are secure? “We are living through a crisis in computer security the likes of which we’ve never seen,” he says. “But until we solve the fundamental problem, which is that our policy incentivises offence to a greater degree than defence, hacks will continue unpredictably and they will have increasingly larger effects and impacts.”

我們不是正開始發(fā)現(xiàn)沒有哪個數(shù)字化的數(shù)據(jù)庫是安全的?他說：“我們正在經(jīng)歷一場計算機(jī)安全危機(jī)，類似危機(jī)我們從未見過。然而，我們的政策對攻擊的鼓勵多于對防御的鼓勵，在我們解決這個根本問題以前，黑客攻擊還會以不可預(yù)測的方式繼續(xù)出現(xiàn)，其后果和影響也會越來越大。”

The answer, he thinks, is that there ought to be some form of liability for negligence in software architecture, such as would apply in the food industry. He adds, drily: “People from my tribe will be extraordinarily mad at me for suggesting regulation in the terms of negligence for software security.”

他認(rèn)為，要解決這個問題，應(yīng)該規(guī)定在軟件架構(gòu)的設(shè)計中存在疏忽行為須得承擔(dān)某種責(zé)任，就如食品行業(yè)的做法一樣。他淡淡地接著說道：“我提議針對軟件安全的過失方面制定規(guī)章，圈子里的人聽到會氣得發(fā)瘋。”

 . . .  ……

He has finished his ice cream and declines coffee. Life in Moscow is getting better, he says: “I’m more open now than I’ve been since 2013.” He sees few people — such meetings as this are rare — and divides his time between public speaking (which pays the bills) and devising tools to protect the digital security of journalists. He would rather not go into “the family stuff” or how often he sees Lindsay Mills, his partner, who was left behind in Hawaii when he quit his job for the NSA there and disappeared to Hong Kong.

他吃完了冰淇淋，謝絕了咖啡。他說，在莫斯科的生活越來越好了，“比起2013年事情發(fā)生后的一段時期，我現(xiàn)在更開放了。”他見的人很少，類似這次的會晤十分少見。他的時間主要用在公開演講(由此帶來的收入用于支付各種賬單)和設(shè)計供記者使用的保護(hù)數(shù)字信息安全的工具。他不愿談及“家事”，也不肯透露多久見一次林賽•米爾斯(Lindsay Mills)。后者是他的女朋友，在他從美國國家安全局離職跑到香港以后被留在了夏威夷。

His American lawyer, Ben Wizner at the American Civil Liberties Union, is reported to be preparing to launch a petition to President Barack Obama to grant Snowden a pardon before he steps down. Snowden will only say: “Of course I hope they’re successful but this has never really been about what happens to me. No matter how the outcome shakes out, it’s something I can live with.”

據(jù)報道，他的美國律師、美國公民自由聯(lián)盟(American Civil Liberties Union)的本•維茨納(Ben Wizner)正準(zhǔn)備向美國總統(tǒng)巴拉克•奧巴馬(Barack Obama)請愿，希望奧巴馬在卸任前赦免斯諾登。對此斯諾登只表示：“我當(dāng)然希望他們成功，不過這完全與我個人境遇無關(guān)。不論結(jié)果如何，我都可以接受。”

His chances of a happy ending under President Donald Trump would be zero, I observe. What about under President Hillary Clinton? “You’re trying to drag me into a political quagmire,” he protests. He collects himself, looking intensely at the ground, before sidestepping the question: “I think we should have better choices. We’re a country of 330m people and we seem to be being asked to make a choice between individuals whose lives are defined by scandal. I simply think we should be capable of more.”

我看，若是唐納德•特朗普(Donald Trump)當(dāng)了總統(tǒng)，他這事得以善終的可能性必然為零。但如果是希拉里•克林頓(Hillary Clinton)總統(tǒng)呢?他抗議道：“你在把我拖入一個政治難題。”他緊緊地盯著地面，凝神想了一會兒，還是沒有正面回答這個問題，而是說道：“我認(rèn)為，我們應(yīng)該有更好的選擇。我們是個擁有3.3億人的國家，而我們卻似乎被要求在各個丑聞纏身的人之間做出選擇。我就是認(rèn)為，我們應(yīng)該能有更多選擇。”

If he’s tough on the options in US politics, his willingness to tweet criticism of Russian politics to his 2.3m followers has not gone unnoticed. “A lot of people who care about me tell me to shut up, but if I was married to my own self-interest, I never would have left Hawaii.

如果說他在談到美國政治的選擇空間時措辭嚴(yán)厲，那么人們沒有忽視的是，他很愿意在Twitter網(wǎng)站上，向他的230萬粉絲發(fā)表對俄羅斯政治的批評。“許多關(guān)心我的人讓我閉嘴，然而如果我只在乎個人利益，我就不會離開夏威夷了。”

“I can’t fix the human rights situation in Russia, and realistically my priority is to fix my own country first, because that’s the one to which I owe the greatest loyalty. But though the chances are it will make no difference, maybe it’ll help.”

“我無法改善俄羅斯的人權(quán)狀況，而且說實在的，我首要關(guān)心的是先改善我自己的國家，因為它才是我懷有最大忠誠的國度。盡管很可能改變不了什么，但也許會起作用呢。”

He gathers up his dark glasses: it’s time for him to melt into the Moscow crowds. A final question: the Stone film shows him spiriting his trove of secrets out of the NSA on a micro-SD card hidden in a Rubik’s Cube. True or false?

他拿起墨鏡——隱入莫斯科人群中的時間到了。我提了最后一個問題：在斯通的電影中，他通過藏在一塊魔方里的內(nèi)存卡，把大量機(jī)密帶出了美國國家安全局，這是不是真的?

“Oliver confirmed in an interview recently that that’s a touch of the dramatic licence, but that’s only because I wouldn’t confirm or deny how it really happened. I will say that I gave Rubik’s Cubes to everyone in my office, it’s true. I really did that.” And with that he is gone.

“奧利弗在最近一次訪談中證實這是戲劇手法，但他這么說只是因為我不愿證實真實情況是怎樣的，也不愿否認(rèn)。我只會說我給辦公室里的每個人都送了魔方，這一點是真的。我確實這么做了。”他說完這句話就走了。

Alan Rusbridger was editor of the Guardian from 1995-2015. It won the 2014 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service for the revelations

艾倫•拉斯布里杰(Alan Rusbridger)在1995年至2015年期間任《衛(wèi)報》(the Guardian)主編，該報因斯諾登爆料事件贏得2014年普利策公共服務(wù)獎(Pulitzer Prize for Public Service)。